71B Zehra and Terry with ad insert ad at 5% Speedup
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Daryl Cagle: [00:00:00] Hi, I'm Daryl Cagle and this is the Caglecast where we're all about political cartoons. And today we're talking about the cartoons that cause lots of trouble in the world and get cartoonists thrown in jail and start trials and lawsuits. there is a lot of that going on I hate to see it. And we'll show you some of that.

And our guests today are Zehra Ömeroğlu, who just was on trial for how many years was it? . Five. Five years. 

Zehra Ömeroğlu: Five years in total. Yeah. 

Daryl Cagle: Five years on trial in Turkey, facing three years in prison for a cartoon that we're gonna show you. And you just you just got acquitted and that is wonderful.

Zehra Ömeroğlu: Thank you. Thank you so much, darl. But I cannot say I'm acquitted. Yes, I was acquitted, but then the prosecutor insists on punishing me. He's so insisting and he is so strict on that. And he took the court to do court of appeal, so he rejected the acquittal, . I don't know how long [00:01:00] it'll last. I have no idea. Maybe more years. So we will all see, I cannot say, okay. I'm relieved. I was, I'm, it started all over again, unfortunately. 

Daryl Cagle: I didn't hear that. And that's just awful. So are you gonna stay in Germany? 

Zehra Ömeroğlu: Right now I'm in Turkey, but in three weeks I'll be in Amsterdam.

For a half year, I think for six months, five months or something. And then, I don't know. I will see what I will do actually for now, I have no idea. 

Daryl Cagle: You're brave and I'm impressed with you and fight the good fight. 

Zehra Ömeroğlu: Thank you. Thank you. I cannot say I'm brave, but I don't have anything else to do, I just face it and nothing to do.

actually. It's very strange. The very same day with my equi a cartoon. About Mohammad cartoon, but it's not a depiction of Mohammed. That cartoon was published in LeMan, the very same day that with my trial, you know, with my hearing, with my acquittal, let's say, yeah, it's the very same day. So I think this [00:02:00] country doesn't let you even breathe for a few days and enjoy your acquittal. I don't know. Yeah. 

Daryl Cagle: We'll show that cartoon and talk about it. That was 

your editor at the same magazine that ran your cartoon that got you put on trial? 

Zehra Ömeroğlu: Yeah. It's, you were asking, is it the same editor? Yeah, it's yeah. It's the same, it's the same editor even from the beginning of LeMan.

So he is the same person and he faced lots of trials all this while, lots of many. But this is the last one, because there's no LeMan right now. They had to shut down. Everyone is arrested. 

Daryl Cagle: Everyone was arrested. 

Zehra Ömeroğlu: I cannot say everyone, not all the cartoonists. I'm not arrested. But even the accountant, the graphic artist who colors the cartoons editor.

Chief editor, and I don't know, it's in English, but many other other editors. But he was the previous editor, but he hasn't been coming even to LeMan or making any decisions about LeMan for many years. So he just quit years ago. [00:03:00] But they arrested him also. 

It's just a show, you know that. Okay. 

Daryl Cagle: So 

You're doing 

a graphic novel about your experience being forced into exile by this trial and, you sent us a few pages from this, short version of your graphic novel for Cartoonist Rights Network for Terry here. And that's what we're showing now. And I guess this is this is like the condensed version of your big graphic novel that's to come?

Zehra Ömeroğlu: Yes, actually my graphic novel will be like about 200 pages. But this is a very brief summary of what was going on. It's only five pages. But actually after I finished these five pages, many things happened. So it's still I didn't know what's going to happen but now it's the end of the story. So finally, I know the the end of my graphic novel, 

Daryl Cagle: well.

It hasn't 

quite ended yet because it sounds like the trial goes on and on. 

Zehra Ömeroğlu: Yeah. Yeah. They don't want to they don't want to end it, because they are, as I say, they're insisting on punishing me.

[00:04:00] Until they get this result, put me into prison. Or maybe a fine, I don't know, with any punishment, they won't give up. I think there is no other explanation. 

Daryl Cagle: I'm sorry about all of that. Hey, please remember to subscribe wherever you're watching. If you're watching on YouTube, please subscribe and. Please go to Cagle.com/Subscribe. That's where you can get our cartoon a day free newsletter. It features the top three cartoons that editors reprinted the most in America that day and. You know, editors are kind of timid nowadays, and they like to reprint cartoons that aren't going to offend anybody, and perhaps you'll like to be offended and you like to see those cartoons with strong opinions.

So now we have a premium newsletter. It's just so cool because it includes all those other cartoons that editors didn't wanna print, and, all the cartoonists making their points as strongly as they can. And, what the heck? It's $6 a month.

Get our premium newsletter and hey, thank you for [00:05:00] subscribing either on YouTube or wherever you're watching this or, to our Cagle.com/Subscribe newsletter. And thank you so much.

Zehra Ömeroğlu: Actually. I want to perceive it like a funny story of Chekhov, Anton Chekhov, because otherwise it would make me really depressed, but I don't try to see the funny parts. I see automatically the funny parts in it because you know I'm a cartoonist, I'm good at it, seeing the funny parts in bad stories. So I am trying to do the same with my story also, but at least I know the end right now. It ended no, it's still going on.

But at least for the first book, I know the ending and very dramatic ending with LeMan also, which is weird. I wasn't expecting this. 

Daryl Cagle: The LeMan editors all being arrested for a cartoon This is the cartoon in question, , and you can see that Mohammed there on the left has been blurred out. And z maybe you should read this Turkish cartoon to us and tell us what's going on. [00:06:00] 

Zehra Ömeroğlu: Yeah, he says hi I'm Mohammed and an Islamic greeting, and the other one says, in Their language, like Aleyhem Salom I am Musa and he says, okay, I'm and I'm Moses. Yeah. Is it true? And this is this cartoon is. Not a depiction of prophet, actually. It's just a symbolic cartoon about people who have died in, in both religions.

And this is actually this cartoon is full of peace. This cartoon doesn't it doesn't attack anyone or it's not insulting or anything. And it's not Prophet moment because there is millions of people who uses these names. It's just a symbol for those people, those two groups. So it's not the Prophet, 

but 

Daryl Cagle: if you're a 

cartoonist and you're gonna draw somebody and you're gonna pick a name for them, Mohammad's the most common name in the world.

In it's all, limited to Islamic people. And so what name are you gonna pick for somebody to say, this [00:07:00] guy's Islam and that guy's Jewish. That, that makes perfect sense to me. That doesn't label him as Prophet Mohammad. 

Zehra Ömeroğlu: Yeah. 

Terry Anderson: No, 

Zehra Ömeroğlu: it doesn't. No, it's not prophet Mohammad.

And it's just name and it's the, as you said, it's the most common name. But, this Islamic organization who attacked, they, they were very quick to provoke and mobilize, maybe it was, I don't know if they decided to organize this or they were commanded to do like this.

I have no idea. But I can say they were very well organized and they were very quick. But I think, I believe this cartoon may have maybe related to the fact that the rival the leader of the opposition party was like supporting LeMan.

So this might have something to do with this because it was unbelievable that they start, they tried to attack because of this cartoon. He is not even Prophet.

Terry Anderson: It's the same point you were making earlier on there. This provided an opportunity.

This was a cartoon that could be willfully [00:08:00] misrepresented and easily used as the pretext for the kind of action that we saw happening in Istanbul at the end of July for the benefit of those who are perhaps listening and can't see this image. It is categorically not a cartoon. Of the Prophet Mohammed, we see a scene with munitions falling from the sky.

It's Gaza. These are the souls of two recently deceased men. That's clear from the fact that they have angelic wings and halos over their heads. One happens to be a Muslim named Mohammed that happens to be a Jew named Musa or Moses. What we are looking at on screen is the verse of the cartoon that I imagine most people outside the Turkey saw.

It's the verse that circulated through a lot of news media where, for obvious reasons, they had blurred the alleged figure of Mohammed. The problem with that is it sent the message, this is our drawing of Mohammed. Then we have to blur it. So if you were taking a cursory glance at this story, or you weren't aware of the details, then you would've been left with the very strong impression that.

Dogan Pehlevan, the cartoonist [00:09:00] concerned, had done a cartoon of the prophet Muhammad. It is categorically not that, and anybody that looks at the cartoon, and certainly who looks at the, shall we say, unexpurgated version, the original printed version of the cartoon would know that. Very hard to do. Now, because the magazine has disappeared, LeMan is off the shelves.

All the unsold copies of this magazine were seized and as we'll get into , as an organism, it's now completely paralyzed. So you either saw it at the time that you or you didn't, and if you didn't see it, you've been left with a very distorted impression of what it was deliberately 

Daryl Cagle: yeah, basically they're not gonna be friends until after everybody's dead. I get that.

Terry Anderson: Yeah.

Daryl Cagle: I think that's a fine point for a cartoon. And it's all screwed up just because he picked the name Mohammad and happened to yeah, send people over the edge. 

Terry Anderson: Maybe if there may, I don't know. Maybe if there had been a third figure because Christians have died as well, Muslim, Jew and Christians have died in Gaza.

Maybe if there had been a third figure that would've just, made it absolutely crystal clear that this is an ecunemical statement [00:10:00] about the indiscriminate death that's ensued. But again, it's at this stage beside the point because it's been presented as something that it was not, it's been taken.

genuinely or disingenuously as something it was not. And as Zehra points out and as indeed she witnessed herself on the streets of Istanbul, it led to mass protests outside the offices of LeMan . And everybody from the Justice Minister to the Minister for the Interior to the president himself passing comment on it.

And then came the arrests. 

Daryl Cagle: And Zehra, this is the magazine that printed your cartoon that got you put on trial. 

Zehra Ömeroğlu: Yeah. Yeah. It's the same magazine. LeMan. That I started to draw. And, many cartoonists draw. It's one of the most famous, actually, it's not one of the, it's the only one left because always shut down 

That was the only one. Now it's gone. Yes, it was the last one. There are some magazines who is not, which is not regularly published, but this was the only one left. The oldest one published also most famous [00:11:00] one. So sorry to see that. It's it doesn't exist right now. When I was in the street yesterday, I think they just put off the name LeMan from the building.

It's really very sad to see LeMan is gone also. It's the minister and even the opposition leaders they turned this into a show. It was very sad to see that they, even the one in prison, the leader in prison, opposition leader in prison he condemned the magazine over LeMan over this cartoon.

There was just one person, one leader that defended LeMan and say, this is injustice, this is unfair. But the rest, they all condemned this not to lose votes, and it was the second slap, I think to LeMan and to the cartoonist. It's so sad about yeah, it's so sad to see this, the street, there's still police car.

There are a huge one in the street in front of And there is, no magazines now in Turkey to draw not only political cartoons, you cannot draw anywhere. And there are [00:12:00] some, they're not like newspapers, but some accounts like publish, try to publish political cartoons on social media, but they cannot stand the reaction, so they don't prefer to publish it.

It's like seeing that a tradition, a huge, big tradition since Ottoman Times is being destroyed. 

Daryl Cagle: Are the editors 

still in jail? 

Zehra Ömeroğlu: The chief editor, no, he is abroad. They couldn't put him in jail. But all the other editors, and as I said, the, even the accountant and the graphic artist who colors the the cartoons, they're all in jail.

Five are in jail, one, they couldn't. Put him in jail, and, they're all my friends. And just before this thing happened, I heard what was going on and I was in the street. I called them and asked how they are and where they are. And some of them were, and including the cartoonist they were all very surprised and they couldn't believe their ears, because they say it's just a normal cartoon.

What's wrong with this cartoon? They couldn't believe. And some of them the accountant for example, he [00:13:00] said, but there's nothing to do with me. And this cartoon is so innocent. And then we, he was even smiling, we said, okay, this is not a big thing. No one guessed that this attack would happen. This, the scale is really big this time. And then we just hang up the phone and I saw him getting arrested violently in, on media. It was so sad. 

Terry Anderson: Yeah. Video footage of the arrests broadcast on Turkish tv, shared on Turkish social media, on official accounts belonging to government officials and so on.

as Zena says, a display of authoritarianism and the arrests initially arising from this cartoon and the alleged incitement and everything that it supposedly represents inaccurately as I say. But now the reason laman is in the condition that it's in is because lo and behold.

While these men are being arrested, while these detentions are ongoing, suddenly we have an investigation of the entire magazine for financial irregularities and the accusation being that they have accepted money from abroad [00:14:00] with the purposes of fomenting descent and acting as fifth columnists within Turkey.

So completely of a piece with the author authoritarian tactics that we're familiar with and all other places all over the map and the kind of thing that it has to be said. Cartoonists now, eh, the ones that we represent fall, fall off far more often than they do accusations of blasphemy or insult to religious sensibility or anything like that.

These are the accusations that are leveled more often and increasingly and are the kind of issues that we're confronted with going forward.

Zehra Ömeroğlu: yeah. 

Daryl Cagle: I just regret all of that, and I think you're great. 

Zehra Ömeroğlu: Thank you. 

Daryl Cagle: And here's here's er one running away with the election.

I should say too, that you have become a Cagle cartoonist, and we have your cartoons on the site, and that's very nice. 

Zehra Ömeroğlu: Yeah. I cannot send these days so many, but yes I can name myself as Cagle cartoonist also. Very good.

Daryl Cagle: Tell me about this one. 

Zehra Ömeroğlu: Yeah, this one is, I think it's a little confusing for the ones who are outside of Turkey because [00:15:00] this robe it represents the law like the judge, the prosecutor, the lawyer, and the other one is the helmet of police. It means that Erdogan controls. But it's not like controlling.

It's like a puppet show, 

Daryl Cagle: it's wonderful 

that you do Erdogan's caricature with just the bottom part of his face. And I just didn't know what the robe represented. So that's a lawyer. 

Zehra Ömeroğlu: Yeah. Lawyer, prosecutor, judge it basically it represents law in Turkey. So he just plays with laws and policemen and all the forces as he wants.

So this cartoon was to tell about this and, his mustache not mustache, but we have a, yeah, I say 

Terry Anderson: Its Schrödinger's mustache. It's like when you look at a magic eye picture or you've been standing at a light bulb too long and then you look away and you see the ghost of the light. It's one of those mustaches that's there but not, yeah.

Daryl Cagle: There. that's funny. That's funny. I like that. Yeah. And you did, trump yelling at Zelensky. 

Zehra Ömeroğlu: This was, ah so strange. [00:16:00] I was shocked when I was watching it, and it was really anyway, it was hard to see like Zelensky with Trump. He was like a kid, and he got smaller and smaller, like Trump was yelling at Zelensky.

For cartoonists it really inspired us a lot. I think all of us drew about this Zelensky and Trump thing. I don't remember when this happened, actually. How many months? 

Think, so, do you remember? 

Daryl Cagle: Things happen so fast now. 

Zehra Ömeroğlu: Yeah, you are. All 

right. 

I can see why this is hard to understand around the world, but, Trump's base is very isolationist and they just don't care anything about the rest of the world.

And he's he's acting the way they'd like to see him act indifferent and in rejecting the values of the rest of the world. We've gotten used to that. No, we don't get into it.

So this is the cartoon that started your trial for five years?

Yes. 

Daryl Cagle: And it's very funny, it's a COVID era cartoon, and you've got the guy thinking at least I didn't lose my taste and [00:17:00] smell. And that's just very funny. And the idea that they would be so motivated to punish you for that is crazy.

This is a magazine that had lots of sexy cartoons as Charlie Hebdo does. It's provocative. It's the nature of the magazine. People aren't gonna be offended unless they buy the magazine and open it up. And the idea that they would pick this out and you to prosecute , you just reeks of they wanted to find a woman cartoonist to punish, just to make a point about cartoonists. And yeah, that's really harsh.

Zehra Ömeroğlu: Actually. We have many cartoons like this. All my fellow colleagues, they draw many cartoons like this. Maybe if this is obscene, I should say more obscene cartoons, but actually it's, they have a they have a prescription, let's say prescription is the word. I think they find something that.

Don't sweet them, doesn't sweet them. A bad idea, for example, for them about [00:18:00] religion, about government, blah, blah. And they really want to punish you because of another cartoon you wrote. But then they start to follow you every week in magazine or on social media, and they try to find the most in their point of view, insulting cartoon to, to put it on trial.

That happened many times before. And I think the same thing happened to me also. Terry, it'll be a, it'll be too repetitive for your story to, sorry to tell the story like a hundred times, but, I had to actually. I was lynched in social media because of COVID in Iran cartoon just some weeks before they started to try investigation.

And the trial of this cartoon the cartoon was like some Iranian woman. And they were complaining about wearing masks because they're, they were saying on the cartoon that what was the speech balloon? The woman was saying, oh, at least our mouth was open, because, they had that dress code in Iran.

So the women were like angry in yelling is the right word. I [00:19:00] dunno. They were angry and it was a LeMan cover. And then a huge link on social media and also not only social media, also the mainstream media who supports the governments. Also, they threatened us, me and LeMan it was very clear, like they anyway, and it took some time and then just in some weeks they started this investigation also.

I had many like threatening messages after that Iran cartoon. But I don't think the thing is this one, it has a past. So they found this to insult me because they think drawing something like this as a woman is insulting, it's their point of view. 

Daryl Cagle: I thought when I was setting up this podcast that you had been acquitted, and this was just a happy story about how you finally put all of this behind you and to hear that has not happened and that you still go through this nightmare with apparently no end to it.

That's really very disappointing and I'm so sorry about that. 

Zehra Ömeroğlu: Yeah, [00:20:00] thank you. But I was really, I felt relieved after the acquittal. I was in Berlin because I went to Berlin before the trial, as a precaution. And I said, okay, I got rid of this. Now I have a new life. I can focus on my graphic novel, new life, blah, blah, because I had many.

concerns about my life? I couldn't make any decisions about my life because of this trial. And I said, okay, I'm so happy this has finished. But as I said, the very same day that this LeMan cartoon published and just some days after they attacked lemon. So Leman was shut down and many friends are arrested, they're still in jail.

And then this court of appeal thing started. So I decided just to ignore, really, I feel numb right now. Really numb. 

Terry Anderson: And if I may, that's the point. That's what these trials are about. In actual fact, an outcome, positive or negative is often the very thing that the prosecutors want to avoid.

Daryl Cagle: Terry [00:21:00] is the 

Executive Director of Cartoonist Rights Network International. And he bravely goes around defending cartoonists who get in trouble, like Zehra and in all parts of the world. And we appreciate you, Terry. 

Zehra Ömeroğlu: Terry. Terry. He's a big support. Sorry to 

Terry Anderson: bravery doesn't 

come into Yeah.

Bravery doesn't come into in my case, the brave ones or the cartoonists and in a natural fact. Since the last time we spoke to you, Daryl, Zehra is the winner of our Robert Russell Courage in Cartooning Award for 2025. In recognition of exactly what you've already discussed and what you've already highlighted.

It's not my decision a hasten to add it, it's the board. My board of directors makes the choice. And with each passing month, I'm satisfied that they made absolutely the correct decision, especially considering what's just happened. The acquittal was very welcome and as Sarah mentions, we had a month or so of happiness as a result, but now we return to the same narrative and it is a narrative that's predicated on misogyny in my view.

I think this cartoon at the same place at the same time [00:22:00] with a male. Byline would not have elicited anything like the same response that this one has. Zehra is probably right. It's probably not really about this cartoon per se. This is the one that presents itself as the easiest one to prosecute, and it bears comparison to what's happened at LeMan lately.

We'll come to that in due course. But it's worth explaining. The one thing that Zehra hasn't gone into is that the people that judged this cartoon, obscene are the panel in Turkey who are responsible for the safety of children. And in essence, what they are saying is that Zara is a danger to youth.

So not only is it nakedly, obviously misogynistic, it's downright slanderous what she's been forced to endure in recent years. And The situation that she describes, the inability to make plans. The fact that you don't know what direction your life is going in. Are you going to be in jail or not?

If so, for how long? If it's a suspended sentence, what will the terms of that be? What will I be able to do and not able to do? If it's a fine, where is that money supposed to come from? And in the meantime, [00:23:00] what about my career? If I'm considered a criminal are other people gonna take the risk of publishing my work?

Am I going to get to continue to pursue what it is that I want to do? So all these questions have confronted Zehra in these last several years, and I don't think she will mind me saying that the upshot of it is effectively her career in Turkey is over. I'm quietly confident, more than quietly confident that she has a career ahead of her.

But that career is not in Turkey. Because regardless of what the outcome ends up being in this prosecution too much time has been lost. Too much momentum has been lost In the meantime, and again, as we'll discuss the conditions for cartoonists generally in Turkey have degraded to such an extent that it's really not worth pursuing anymore.

Daryl Cagle: That's largely true of journalism in Turkey, beyond cartoonists. And I should point out to people that may be watching this video on YouTube take a look and see if YouTube has rated it for adults only. And I wouldn't be surprised if they do and that'll squash the traffic for it.

[00:24:00] And it'll mean that they won't run advertising on it so that they're not going to let people find it unless they know exactly where to go. And, we have those kinds of issues here in America too.

Terry Anderson: Indeed. 

Zehra Ömeroğlu: And the sad thing is Terry, you remember you shared about my acquittal in I don't know if I have to say the platform name, but, and this platform also banned.

Terry Anderson: Yes. 

Daryl Cagle: What 

platform was, come on, tell the, what's the platform's name? 

Zehra Ömeroğlu: It's LinkedIn. Yeah. 

Terry Anderson: I couldn't talk about Zera on LinkedIn because of this scandalous pornographic . A offensive, obscene cartoon. 

Daryl Cagle: We all smile when we talk about this, and we should not be smiling.

Zehra Ömeroğlu: I think we should be smiling to protect our mental health. And, there's one more thing that the judge asked for a report. About this cartoon, whether to decide whether, if it's obscene or not. There's a council about it this council was launched in, I think it's, it was [00:25:00] in nineties for a pornographic magazines, you know these Yeah. To put into black black bags, these magazines. And now they are the ones who decide about this cartoon.

It's unbelievable.

Daryl Cagle: Congratulations on your award, Zehra. 

Zehra Ömeroğlu: Thank you. Thank you so much. I'm so happy. And I want to thank one more time. To Terry and Cartoonists Rights? It's so important. Really, it's really important. I can say that many times because when you're facing such things you need something to carry on, to motivate, and it's more than important.

Thank you. So 

Daryl Cagle: Terry I am going to switch to you and we're gonna flip through a bunch of images , where you have some updates over our last podcast about cartoonists going to jail, where we had Zehra on before. And sure. So give us give us all the new news about all of these old situations and what has popped up new.

Terry Anderson: Yep. So the last time we spoke the creator of this image, Atena Farghadani, [00:26:00] was in jail in Iran. This was one of her paintings that was part of an exhibit at the Oslo Freedom Forum. In April of last year, the cartoon in the center is the cartoon for which she originally went to jail in 2015. And 

Daryl Cagle: that's the cartoon 

depicting Iranian legislators as animals that are shown in an unflattering light.

Terry Anderson: Indeed. And she was told at that time that she was more than welcome to travel to Oslo to attend the forum, but she would be arrested immediately upon her return. So aggrieved by that. And an objection to that. She went to Pasteur street in the middle of Tehran, near the government buildings, and tried to place a cartoon, a poster there objecting to the government.

She was arrested on the spot, quite badly beaten taken to prison and had been in jail for the better part of a year when we last spoke and was looking at a stretch to come, but happily the charges against her were reduced to something less serious. The commensurate sentence was reduced to eight [00:27:00] months, and that was considered time served.

So very early in this year, in fact, she was released and happily . There hasn't been a, there hasn't been a sting in the tail as yet on this one, albeit, of course she remains in Iran and could be subject to bad treatment in the future. 

Daryl Cagle: I expect Iran to be a terrible place and intolerant of any kind of speech.

And I don't expect that from Turkey. Turkey is like almost a western country and they're supposed to have a free press and Iran doesn't even aspire to being a western country or have a free press. And to my way of thinking, Zehra's situation is much more grave than a terrible country acting terrible as you'd expect them to.

Terry Anderson: I don't dunno if grave is the word. They're all grave. Atena suffered terribly as she often does. She this is her third time as a prisoner. And this last time her health suffered and she resorted to hunger strike. But I guess the way to put it would be that yes it's galling when a country aspires to, for example, EU membership or [00:28:00] or a seat at the top table NATO or some of these other international cross border organizations and so on like Turkey does and then fails to keep up with its obligations to, to freedom the press and freedom expression.

And that is all to do with, it has to be said, the personality of the man at the top, who, again, will come to, 

Daryl Cagle: This is wonderful. Good news since our last podcast. And here she is. 

Terry Anderson: So what's up with this, Terry? So this is another case, it's update everyone on. We spoke about Ashraf Omar in Egypt the last time we were together. This is the last cartoon that he had in the Al-Manassa outlet in Cairo. It's talking about infrastructure in Cairo that had been power cuts incapacitating the monorail, the public transport system, and so on.

In the days before this cartoon was published, so July of last year his home was raided. He disappeared for four, eight hours. His whereabouts were run unknown. Eventually the police admitted that he was with them. He had since been interrogated asked about his cartoons, asked about what he was trying to achieve with [00:29:00] them and was ultimately charged with supporting terrorism.

Daryl Cagle: Has there been anything new that's happened since the last time we looked at this on our previous podcast? 

Terry Anderson: We have unfortunately passed the anniversary, so the anniversary of his arrest just went by in the latter half of July. Ourselves and various other organizations marked that sad anniversary.

With another call for his release. He's still in pretrial Detention. This is a condition that's has existed in the statute books in Egypt since the pandemic. So essentially, rather than having a proper hearing, they can do what we are doing right now. They can, people can get together, prosecutor and the judge can get together on a Zoom call effectively and come to a very quick summary decision to extend his detention.

There's no opportunity for him to communicate with his counsel. There's no opportunity for him to offer any kind of petition or any kind of counter argument. And as I say, that has continued for 12 months and could continue for as long as another six. So it'll be potentially the end of this year before anything changes at all.

But what has happened in the meantime, unfortunately, is his wife was arrested. And similarly charged with support terrorism, all because of an [00:30:00] interview that, that was conducted for a press interview where she spoke about Ashraf and the case. Fortunately rather than her entering the same state of limbo she was granted bail.

So she's not held, she's not in prison, but it's worth noting that she's been criminalized in much the same way as her husband simply for speaking out on his behalf, 

Daryl Cagle: another US ally acting just terrible.

And here's the story. And there she is.

Terry Anderson: That's Nada Mougheeth wife of Ashraf Omar, jailed albeit briefly, as I say, she was eventually bailed, but on the same charges. 

Daryl Cagle: This is when from how many years ago? Four or five years ago?

That ran in the International edition of the New York Times. And I would argue that this is an antisemitic cartoon and they should have apologized for it as they did. But what they did beyond that was to say that this is the last editorial cartoon that the New York Times will ever print. And they did nothing to punish the editor who chose to run this cartoon in the newspaper.

They also dumped a syndicate that they had been supporting as part of The [00:31:00] New York Times, which was Cartoonists and Writers Syndicate that had been around for many years. Jerry Robinson, who famously created the Joker character in Batman comics ran this international cartoon syndicate and it had a database on the New York Times, and they just killed it immediately.

They dropped the database. And that led to the death of cartoonists and Writers Syndicate, which was not long ago purchased by Tjeerd Royards and Cartoon Movement which is it's nice that the cartoonist still had a home.

But the idea that some stupid editor causes. All of that kerfuffle, killing a syndicate and killing a traditional American journalistic art form in perhaps the most prominent newspaper. That's just outrageous overreaction. And

okay, I'm just ranting now.

Terry Anderson: No. Rants are what we're here for 2019. 2019. 2019. 

Daryl Cagle: 2019. So six years ago 

Terry Anderson: and again my previous point, yes. The on the honorable thing to do would've been for the [00:32:00] editor to carry the can for this. Whatever consequences there had to be should have come to the editor because the tar doesn't appear naturally without the editor's approval and and input.

And so one column doesn't get every columnist fired. if it would be illogical to do that, then it's equally illogical to get rid of all cartoons for the sake of one. 

Daryl Cagle: That's true. I would argue that they should ban words rather than drawings. They've had much more trouble with words.

And I should say that a lot of cartoonists had defended this cartoon. It's drawn by Antonio Antunes, who is a well-known, nice guy, lots of cartoonist friends from Portugal very well known cartoonist. And, I think it's an antisemitic cartoon, and that puts me at an argument with many of my peers.

But I think broadly there's not much disagreement about that. You've got the star of David by itself without being part of the Israeli flag, which indicates the religion rather than the state. You've got Netanyahu as this German dachshund, which is a kind of a Nazi reference. You've [00:33:00] got you've got Trump with a yarmulke.

It's it's a bad cartoon and a bad decision by the Times. And fascinating that they punish the whole cartooning profession rather than punishing the editor who made a bad choice. An editor in Hong Kong who they describe as a junior editor. Who I guess was working in the middle of the night with no one watching him.

Yeah. Alright. Talk about this controversial Charlie Hebdo cover, which has Erdogan lifting and looking at the butt of this lady. 

Terry Anderson: So this, again is the same this is Charlie Hebdo, of course. 

Daryl Cagle: And this is in France 

where you can draw anything, we have these ad hominem cartoons that we do all the time, name calling cartoons, just showing politicians to be jerks.

And that's a great tradition of that editorial cartooning. I like that those are preaching to the choir kind of cartoons. They don't convince anybody of anything, but they're very satisfying. That's basically what this is. 

Terry Anderson: Yeah. And it was around about the time, I think [00:34:00] ever since the attacks, everyone knows about the attacks, some 10 years ago now at Charlie Hebdo.

So when those anniversaries have rolled around every January Charlie Hebdo was often had a kind of special edition or special issue where they focus on a particular topic. And I can't remember whether it was this particular issue or not. The cover date seems to be October, so perhaps I'm mistaken about that.

But in any case, October decided 2020. So years ago they dec they decided, but I bring it up. 

Daryl Cagle: I bring it up because it's Erdogan and bashing, they decided it was, they decided it was Erdogan's turn profit. 

Terry Anderson: They decided it was Erdogan's turn. And again, for those that aren't aware, this is a man who is extraordinarily sensitive.

to being in cartoons. and caricature has embarked upon countless cases, not just against the cartoonists. All you have to do is have the cartoon in your hand. There was a very well publicized case where some students who happened to be holding a placard that had cartoons of Erdogan on the board were sent to jail.

He cannot abide being [00:35:00] cartooned which of course just makes you target for more cartoons. The trick is to ignore them. When you make a big deal out of the fact that you've been cartooned or caricatured, you're just inviting more of the same. So in this particular case we have him a caricature and pretty un flattering terms.

He's a slob sitting in his underwear and a chair, and he's lifting the burka of a woman revealing her backside. 

Daryl Cagle: He's saying, Ooh, the prophet. 

Terry Anderson: Yeah. Yeah. 

Ooh, the prophet.

Yeah. But it caused that big diplomatic incident. Erdogan was looking to take Charlie Hebdo the court Macron I believe had to make some kind of response, along the lines of, we have freedom of expression here, we value our cartoonists, et cetera, et cetera.

Charlie Hebdo of course, being certainly after the attack, a title that occupies a very particular place in the French psyche in French culture. But as Zehra points out magazines. Comparable to Charlie Hebdo having been all but wiped out in Turkey. Whereas before Erdogan, it was a very healthy scene.

The Turkish cartoon scene was very [00:36:00] comparable and reflected what we see in other European countries like France, Spain et cetera. All of that eaten away during the Erdogan years. So that in itself kinda makes him a target, for cartoonists outside and especially if they want to express solidarity with the cartoonists who've been targeted within.

Daryl Cagle: One 

of the joys of being a cartoonist is knowing that you can so annoy someone that you want to annoy. And that's basically all this cartoon is, and that's what makes me laugh. all right, 

Zehra Ömeroğlu: I have to say that I really. Try to avoid laughing to the cartoon previous, add one cartoon because, laughing it can cause me trouble, but Sure.

So I'm very happy that you just he just changed. I try to avoid, 

Daryl Cagle: I thought this one was funny. He is just recreated the cover in his his own style and put the cover in there so that you know what his cartoon's about. That's funny in itself. And here's another one from Christo Komarnitsky in, in Bulgaria.

He can make it about the EU. [00:37:00] Anyway I enjoyed this kerfuffle and I enjoy seeing the cartonists annoy Erdogan so, and. So this one makes me smile. There was a cartoonist some time ago who was in jail, who's been released Musa Kart, and there was a worldwide effort among cartoonists to draw cartoons on his behalf.

I just throw these in here to show that these cartoon problems have been going on for a long time in Turkey, and they have generated a lot of great and interesting art and it seems like this problem will not go away. One thing that's frustrating is you can you can annoy these guys with cartoons, but rarely do the cartoons achieve anything real.

Terry Anderson: Like Zehra a winner of our award and it was third time. Third time the charm. In this case, Erdogan had tried twice before to, to criminalize him. That was very much on the basis of his cartoons, his portrayals of first time round, prime minister, second time round, president Erdogan, when he went to jail for the third, on the third time, along with colleagues from Cumhuriyet.

[00:38:00] 

Terry Anderson: And you have our respect, you have our support, and for as long as it takes, whatever we throw at you. 

Daryl Cagle: Good luck with all this. Zehra. 

Zehra Ömeroğlu: Thank you. Thank you so much. It's always a pleasure to talk about cartooning and not only troubles, but I hope someday we will just get through this and maybe talk about just cartooning, just the jokes, but not the troubles.

I hope that's my biggest hope, really. Thank you. I can 

Daryl Cagle: invite you back for one of these where we don't mention any of this stuff. 

Zehra Ömeroğlu: Yeah, maybe. Why not? 

Daryl Cagle: All right. Thank you very much. And

so that is the Caglecast. Remember to subscribe and come back for the next one. And we love you. We love you so much. I see you later.